OK.. Here is where I have a real issue with Fox News.
1) This story is based on a statement made by "a high ranking advisor to the president". What was the statement? Who made the statement and when? What was the context of the statement?
2) Rather than explore those simple questions, they rush right into a discussion of what (they assume) the VAT would be - based on what is done in Europe. They talk about it as if it was already before congress and needed to be addressed.
First, there is NO way, in our current political situation that a VAT tax bill would even make it out of committee - even assuming that you could find a congress critter stupid enough to propose one.
Second, such a tax would face certain constitutional challenge. I doubt seriously that such a tax is constitutional.
Third - such a tax would almost certainly lead to a HUGE public outcry (far louder than the health bill ever did).
This is sensational reporting at it's worst. It has no basis in reality and is simply meant to (at best) energize the republican base against Obama and congress or (at worst) scare the viewer with propaganda.
Moorcat, are you for real? This was widely reported, not just by Fox News but by many sources including the New York Times, Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal and ran on the wires of Reuters, Bloomberg and the AP.
The high ranking advisor was none other than Paul Volcker, one of Obama's Chief Economic Advisors and head of the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board. By the way he is a former Chairman of the Federal Reserve under Presidents Carter and Reagan. The Comment was (as reported) made at a Global Economic Forum and he said, "if, at the end of the day, we need to raise taxes, we should raise taxes." He went on to say that the United States should consider a National Sales tax similar to the European Value-Added tax.
Nothing was taken out of context he was speaking about how the U.S. could begin to paydown the massive debt we have acquired which has started rising dramatically in the last 4 years.
He did mention that this is unpopular at this time, but like all unpopular things he said we must at least consider this as an option.
He is a Princeton, Harvard and London School of Economics graduate and an expert eocnomist according to the President's own bio of him.
This is not sensational news reporting as you say because whenever a former Fed chair and current presidential advisor makes a statement about economic policy in an economic forum it is news and it should be.
So let's back off a minute on the anti-Fox News sentiments. The crap liberal spew about their being liars and schills is enough to make you puke. What you should be asking is why the other television stations haven't talked about it yet as the newspapers have.
I heard it on satellite radio last night driving home and I was listening to CNBC Business Radio, not Fox News.
I also heard in the story that while Volcker thought it was unpopular now, some members of Congress including Nancy Pelosi as late as last fall felt it was a reasonbale solution to our economic issues.
In light of what I heard with my own ears, I am not sure I can go with Moorcat on this one, Fox News was just reporting what a top economic guy said.
What you seem to be not getting from Moorcat's statement. Is that was simply a suggestion by an economic adviser. It hasn't been signed into law, debated, or even brought up by congress. But here Faux News is all ready trying to figure out how much money and what it would mean to the county. It is propaganda designed to scare the american public without really showing the facts about the issue ( if it really is an issue at all). Just like they did with the health reform. The right wing likes to put Hitler mustaches on Obama and call him a socialist. But they forget that the Nazis used propaganda as a scare tactic too.
Adding the tax would greatly slash the debt. If the tax were replacing the current income tax system, it would get rid of the archaic, and confusing tax system we have now, while discouraging the sickening overconsumption of the US.
Here is a quick lesson in global economics from DeConstructor.
These numbers get pushed soo far out of proportion.
At the end of WWI, the US was the largest lender nation. At the end of WWII the US was the largest debtor nation, with the national debt surpassing GDP.
However, the monies spent, not only saving the world from tyranny, but also in FDR's New Deal brought the great American society of the 50' and 60's.
Today the debt, after W decided to fight 2 wars on a Chinese credit card, is between 90 and 100% of GDP, and less (as a percentage of GDP)than at the end of WWII.
President Obama has raised the debt during his tenure, however I think everyone would agree that W left him a bucket of S when he left office.
The much worse ramifications of current economic conditions is the loss of entire industries to cheap labor. The US does still make the best movies, airplanes, medications, and software in the world.
If we had our act together we would become the world leader in the trillion dollar alternative energy industry. We would also heed president Clintons advice, that aid to developing countries is also developing a market for American goods.
The national debt gets blown way out of proportion. As compared to GDP we are in a lot better shape than a lot of countries.
So we coould get of debt if we wanted, but, the tax increase would have negative effects on the economy and make the dollar too strong. (The Chinese keep their currency artificially low to keep their exports cheap)
This of course, would have ramifications of making the dollar so strong that exports, particularly ag products would suffer.
First, I was just going by what I saw in the video posts on the site. I had not heard of the news stories you mentioned (though I have read them since) - and I stand by my original post.
The commenters in the video posted talked about this as if was some immenent threat (in fact, they talked about such a tax as if was already completed). This is BS reporting at it's worst.
Who has actually proposed such a bill in Congress? Where is the Constitutional Authority for such a bold move by the Federal Government? Has our Congress Critters discussed a possible move toward a national sales tax? Would the proposed tax (if there is one) tax every purchase or just those in specific catagories?
Again, this is the sensationalism on a national scale and while I can understand a media ferver over it (sensationalism sells papers), I am certainly not going to get all up in arms over some pipedream by a government advisor.
Read my lips - a national sales tax would not make it through congress and certainly would not be enacted - the American people would revolt. Hell, a number of states can't get a state sales tax passed.. what makes you think they can do it in Congress?
When a bill get's introduced to enact a National Sales Tax, let me know. Until then, Shame on Fox (and any others) that are using this to whip up thier readers till they are frothing at the mouth.
When they first starting talking about Obamacare moorcat I thought the very things you just said about the vat tax. No one would allow this to happen and no one would vote for it. You see what just happened
There are hundreds of millions of voting citizens yet we are letting a few hundred people we send to Washington do this to us. WHY?
The question we should be asking ourselves is why have we let the congress get this powerful and unresponsive to their citizens?
Ok so your upset about hype. Fine. You think a VAT or National Sales Tax is so far fetched? Ask The Speaker of the House Ms. Nancy Pelosi. She sais she feels one should be on the table.
Here are a few links to stories about here suggestion. All are right-wing conspiratorial sites too!
I do agree with you that this is a very unpopular idea and probably would not make it through Congress, but I didn't think Healthcare or Cap and Trade would either and now we have Healthcare and the House passed Cap and Trade.
I realize you must have something against Fox, but you don't shoot the messenger. Their analysis of the this suggestion was based on the European models and nearly ever member of the EU now has a VAT or a consumption based sales tax. They were talking about what could happen if a tax like those in Europe were instigated in the U.S. and what impact it would have on the economy.
Paul Volcker is not just any advisor, by Obama's own mouth during his campaign Paul Volcker was one of his most trusted advisors on economic advisors. So believe me when Volcker said it it is being considered. It may not actually happen, but it is definitely being considered.
Also several members of Congress have in the past as well as this year proposed a National Sales Tax including some Republicans who want it to replace the income tax. Go to http://thomas.loc.gov and search for National Sales Tax in the bill finder and see the proposed legislation. Granted several of these are only resolutions directing the institution of the a national sales tax, but nonetheless you asked who in Congress would float it. There are those who would.
We have an Illigal Alien as President with a Communist Agenda that he is pushing as fast as possible....What do you want to bet me that he will suspend the elections in November?...we will see more False flag ops soon & then Martial law & then he will suspend & then you will know for sure that you are being held Prisoner by this Faciiast Party...300 Million VS about 600(Globally)...Get ready! It's gonna get MESSY...lol
Again, you misundestand me. I am not upset about the "hype" - in fact I expect it from new channels so obviously biased like FOX news or MSNBC. What I am upset about is bad reporting and the hype it generates.
I honestly didn't think that the current version of the health care bill would get passed either though i did expect something to get passed. The current iteration of the HCR is - in my opinion - an abomination that has already cost me and my wife about 140$ a month.
That said, I see a VAT tax and the health care issues as apples and oranges. The majority of Americans said - "Fix Health Care". We were silly to believe that our Congress Critters could do that effectively but nonetheless, we said it.
NO ONE is saying pass a new unilateral sales tax. This is all coming from disconnected government people trying to figure out a way to pay for the overly expensive abortion they just handed us. There is no public support for this - at least none that I can find - and as such, there is zero chance that it will come to pass any time soon.
In fact, there is a lot of talk right now in the news about voters being pretty unanimous in telling the Government to cut spending and NOT to raise new taxes.
A Congress Critters first and last job is getting re-elected. Only nutcases like pelosi would even consider pissing off the majority of voters even suggesting this be done. Anyone that parades out Pelosi as an example of why I should worry about this has lost all cred with me. She is a nutcase and everyone knows she is a nutcase. It is the same tired argument that was used when people wanted money from me to fight against all the new gun laws Pelosi and Obama were going to pass. Know how many have passed since Obama took office? ZERO. In fact, 27 gun laws have been declared unconstitutional or unenforcable in the last year alone.
My only point is that I wish just once I could find a decent news channel that reported the facts and let me decide how I should feel about them. Republicans used for fight for that..
A couple of comments about a VAT from my research: A VAT is the best way to collect taxes when their are many poor people who do not or cannot pay incom taxes (seen the report 47% people pay NO income tax). It is easy for the govt to raise the percentage and the consumer is none the wiser. Much of the tax is payed for at the manufacturer and wholesale level. The consumer is unaware if the govt decides to hike the rate 1%. THey willl try to sell it as better than a sales tax but it is really the EXACT same thing just the consumer does not see it. I figure whatever % they add as a national sales tax the poverty level will increase that much.
Moorcat- this is a real issue and is being set up by the left in Op-ed articles NYtimes (written like fact). They would not bring this up if it is not on their agenda. THey are getting us accustomed to the idea stage right now. So it won't look so radical when they adavance it thru congress.
Maybe just MAYBE someone could work on the spending side of the problem FIRST.
Jimbo, you're absolutely right. When will "We the People" wake up to the fact that 545 people wield 100% of the power of the Federal Government. 100 senators, 435 congressmen, a President and 9 Supreme Court justices, 545 people out of the 309 million are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
OK.. Here is where I have a real issue with Fox News.
ReplyDelete1) This story is based on a statement made by "a high ranking advisor to the president". What was the statement? Who made the statement and when? What was the context of the statement?
2) Rather than explore those simple questions, they rush right into a discussion of what (they assume) the VAT would be - based on what is done in Europe. They talk about it as if it was already before congress and needed to be addressed.
First, there is NO way, in our current political situation that a VAT tax bill would even make it out of committee - even assuming that you could find a congress critter stupid enough to propose one.
Second, such a tax would face certain constitutional challenge. I doubt seriously that such a tax is constitutional.
Third - such a tax would almost certainly lead to a HUGE public outcry (far louder than the health bill ever did).
This is sensational reporting at it's worst. It has no basis in reality and is simply meant to (at best) energize the republican base against Obama and congress or (at worst) scare the viewer with propaganda.
Shame on Fox News.
Moorcat
Moorcat, here you will find the answer to your first question: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63971
ReplyDeleteMoorcat, are you for real? This was widely reported, not just by Fox News but by many sources including the New York Times, Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal and ran on the wires of Reuters, Bloomberg and the AP.
ReplyDeleteThe high ranking advisor was none other than Paul Volcker, one of Obama's Chief Economic Advisors and head of the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board. By the way he is a former Chairman of the Federal Reserve under Presidents Carter and Reagan. The Comment was (as reported) made at a Global Economic Forum and he said, "if, at the end of the day, we need to raise taxes, we should raise taxes." He went on to say that the United States should consider a National Sales tax similar to the European Value-Added tax.
Nothing was taken out of context he was speaking about how the U.S. could begin to paydown the massive debt we have acquired which has started rising dramatically in the last 4 years.
He did mention that this is unpopular at this time, but like all unpopular things he said we must at least consider this as an option.
He is a Princeton, Harvard and London School of Economics graduate and an expert eocnomist according to the President's own bio of him.
This is not sensational news reporting as you say because whenever a former Fed chair and current presidential advisor makes a statement about economic policy in an economic forum it is news and it should be.
So let's back off a minute on the anti-Fox News sentiments. The crap liberal spew about their being liars and schills is enough to make you puke. What you should be asking is why the other television stations haven't talked about it yet as the newspapers have.
I would have to agree with RR59501.
ReplyDeleteI heard it on satellite radio last night driving home and I was listening to CNBC Business Radio, not Fox News.
I also heard in the story that while Volcker thought it was unpopular now, some members of Congress including Nancy Pelosi as late as last fall felt it was a reasonbale solution to our economic issues.
In light of what I heard with my own ears, I am not sure I can go with Moorcat on this one, Fox News was just reporting what a top economic guy said.
What you seem to be not getting from Moorcat's statement. Is that was simply a suggestion by an economic adviser. It hasn't been signed into law, debated, or even brought up by congress.
ReplyDeleteBut here Faux News is all ready trying to figure out how much money and what it would mean to the county. It is propaganda designed to scare the american public without really showing the facts about the issue ( if it really is an issue at all). Just like they did with the health reform.
The right wing likes to put Hitler mustaches on Obama and call him a socialist. But they forget that the Nazis used propaganda as a scare tactic too.
Take it a step further. A 9% national sales tax would pay off the ENTIRE national debt in a year.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.balancedpolitics.org/national_sales_tax.htm
Most countries do have a national sales tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
Adding the tax would greatly slash the debt. If the tax were replacing the current income tax system, it would get rid of the archaic, and confusing tax system we have now, while discouraging the sickening overconsumption of the US.
Here is a quick lesson in global economics from DeConstructor.
These numbers get pushed soo far out of proportion.
At the end of WWI, the US was the largest lender nation. At the end of WWII the US was the largest debtor nation, with the national debt surpassing GDP.
However, the monies spent, not only saving the world from tyranny, but also in FDR's New Deal brought the great American society of the 50' and 60's.
Today the debt, after W decided to fight 2 wars on a Chinese credit card, is between 90 and 100% of GDP, and less (as a percentage of GDP)than at the end of WWII.
President Obama has raised the debt during his tenure, however I think everyone would agree that W left him a bucket of S when he left office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
The much worse ramifications of current economic conditions is the loss of entire industries to cheap labor. The US does still make the best movies, airplanes, medications, and software in the world.
If we had our act together we would become the world leader in the trillion dollar alternative energy industry. We would also heed president Clintons advice, that aid to developing countries is also developing a market for American goods.
The national debt gets blown way out of proportion. As compared to GDP we are in a lot better shape than a lot of countries.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html
So we coould get of debt if we wanted, but, the tax increase would have negative effects on the economy and make the dollar too strong. (The Chinese keep their currency artificially low to keep their exports cheap)
This of course, would have ramifications of making the dollar so strong that exports, particularly ag products would suffer.
First, I was just going by what I saw in the video posts on the site. I had not heard of the news stories you mentioned (though I have read them since) - and I stand by my original post.
ReplyDeleteThe commenters in the video posted talked about this as if was some immenent threat (in fact, they talked about such a tax as if was already completed). This is BS reporting at it's worst.
Who has actually proposed such a bill in Congress? Where is the Constitutional Authority for such a bold move by the Federal Government? Has our Congress Critters discussed a possible move toward a national sales tax? Would the proposed tax (if there is one) tax every purchase or just those in specific catagories?
Again, this is the sensationalism on a national scale and while I can understand a media ferver over it (sensationalism sells papers), I am certainly not going to get all up in arms over some pipedream by a government advisor.
Read my lips - a national sales tax would not make it through congress and certainly would not be enacted - the American people would revolt. Hell, a number of states can't get a state sales tax passed.. what makes you think they can do it in Congress?
When a bill get's introduced to enact a National Sales Tax, let me know. Until then, Shame on Fox (and any others) that are using this to whip up thier readers till they are frothing at the mouth.
When they first starting talking about Obamacare moorcat I thought the very things you just said about the vat tax. No one would allow this to happen and no one would vote for it. You see what just happened
ReplyDeleteThere are hundreds of millions of voting citizens yet we are letting a few hundred people we send to Washington do this to us. WHY?
The question we should be asking ourselves is why have we let the congress get this powerful and unresponsive to their citizens?
Ok so your upset about hype. Fine. You think a VAT or National Sales Tax is so far fetched? Ask The Speaker of the House Ms. Nancy Pelosi. She sais she feels one should be on the table.
ReplyDeleteHere are a few links to stories about here suggestion. All are right-wing conspiratorial sites too!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36217192
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/61783-pelosi-says-new-tax-is-on-the-table
http://polijamblog.polijam.com/?p=8969
http://www.qando.net/?p=7693
I do agree with you that this is a very unpopular idea and probably would not make it through Congress, but I didn't think Healthcare or Cap and Trade would either and now we have Healthcare and the House passed Cap and Trade.
I realize you must have something against Fox, but you don't shoot the messenger. Their analysis of the this suggestion was based on the European models and nearly ever member of the EU now has a VAT or a consumption based sales tax. They were talking about what could happen if a tax like those in Europe were instigated in the U.S. and what impact it would have on the economy.
Paul Volcker is not just any advisor, by Obama's own mouth during his campaign Paul Volcker was one of his most trusted advisors on economic advisors. So believe me when Volcker said it it is being considered. It may not actually happen, but it is definitely being considered.
Also several members of Congress have in the past as well as this year proposed a National Sales Tax including some Republicans who want it to replace the income tax. Go to http://thomas.loc.gov and search for National Sales Tax in the bill finder and see the proposed legislation. Granted several of these are only resolutions directing the institution of the a national sales tax, but nonetheless you asked who in Congress would float it. There are those who would.
RR59501
We have an Illigal Alien as President with a Communist Agenda
ReplyDeletethat he is pushing as fast as possible....What do you want to bet me that he will suspend the elections in November?...we will see more False flag ops soon & then Martial law & then he will suspend & then you will know for sure that you are being held Prisoner by this Faciiast Party...300 Million VS about 600(Globally)...Get ready! It's gonna get MESSY...lol
Neo said: "We have an Illigal Alien as President"
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. Only nutballs with reality aversions are still peddling that load of carp.
"..with a Communist Agenda
that he is pushing as fast as possible....What do you want to bet me that he will suspend the elections in November?"
How much are you willing to lose?
"...we will see more False flag ops soon"
Like 9/11 I suppose? LOL
" & then Martial law & then he will suspend & then you will know for sure that you are being held Prisoner by this Faciiast Party..."
Must be terrible to be so 1)misinformed, 2) ignorant, 3) frightened and 4)batcrap crazy.
Hey neo is 4 for 4. Quick go hide in your fallout shelter.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you misundestand me. I am not upset about the "hype" - in fact I expect it from new channels so obviously biased like FOX news or MSNBC. What I am upset about is bad reporting and the hype it generates.
ReplyDeleteI honestly didn't think that the current version of the health care bill would get passed either though i did expect something to get passed. The current iteration of the HCR is - in my opinion - an abomination that has already cost me and my wife about 140$ a month.
That said, I see a VAT tax and the health care issues as apples and oranges. The majority of Americans said - "Fix Health Care". We were silly to believe that our Congress Critters could do that effectively but nonetheless, we said it.
NO ONE is saying pass a new unilateral sales tax. This is all coming from disconnected government people trying to figure out a way to pay for the overly expensive abortion they just handed us. There is no public support for this - at least none that I can find - and as such, there is zero chance that it will come to pass any time soon.
In fact, there is a lot of talk right now in the news about voters being pretty unanimous in telling the Government to cut spending and NOT to raise new taxes.
A Congress Critters first and last job is getting re-elected. Only nutcases like pelosi would even consider pissing off the majority of voters even suggesting this be done. Anyone that parades out Pelosi as an example of why I should worry about this has lost all cred with me. She is a nutcase and everyone knows she is a nutcase. It is the same tired argument that was used when people wanted money from me to fight against all the new gun laws Pelosi and Obama were going to pass. Know how many have passed since Obama took office? ZERO. In fact, 27 gun laws have been declared unconstitutional or unenforcable in the last year alone.
My only point is that I wish just once I could find a decent news channel that reported the facts and let me decide how I should feel about them. Republicans used for fight for that..
Moorcat
A couple of comments about a VAT from my research:
ReplyDeleteA VAT is the best way to collect taxes when their are many poor people who do not or cannot pay incom taxes (seen the report 47% people pay NO income tax). It is easy for the govt to raise the percentage and the consumer is none the wiser. Much of the tax is payed for at the manufacturer and wholesale level. The consumer is unaware if the govt decides to hike the rate 1%. THey willl try to sell it as better than a sales tax but it is really the EXACT same thing just the consumer does not see it. I figure whatever % they add as a national sales tax the poverty level will increase that much.
Moorcat- this is a real issue and is being set up by the left in Op-ed articles NYtimes (written like fact). They would not bring this up if it is not on their agenda. THey are getting us accustomed to the idea stage right now. So it won't look so radical when they adavance it thru congress.
Maybe just MAYBE someone could work on the spending side of the problem FIRST.
Jimbo, you're absolutely right. When will "We the People" wake up to the fact that 545 people wield 100% of the power of the Federal Government. 100 senators, 435 congressmen, a President and 9 Supreme Court justices, 545 people out of the 309 million are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
ReplyDelete