Friday, February 4, 2011

Security Cameras for Bar Entrances

I find it hard to believe the amount of time our legislatures spend hearing nonsensical bills brought forward by elected officials out of touch with reality. Senator Christine Kaufmann, D-Helena has introduced a bill that would require monitoring cameras to be place outside of drinking establishments.

Senate bill 250 of course is another “nanny state” protection that is attempting to help law enforcement after East Helena resident Darrel Dullum went missing after a night out at the East Helena Eagles Club a few years ago and his body was found in a creek a couple of weeks later. While I feel for any family that has lost a loved one tragically I fail to see how forcing a business to comply with something like this will actually help.

The scary part for me in these types of bills are phrases such as;
The department shall adopt rules to implement this section, including rules specifying the location and resolution capability of the camera and the length of time that photographs taken by a camera required by this section must be maintained by the licensee.
Like a lot of good intention laws on the books the administrative rules run amuck after the bill is passed and the bureaucrats in the departments start “writing the rules” to protect ourselves from ourselves. I can envision requirements for thousands of dollars in cameras and equipment to comply with this law not to mention yearly inspections and inspection fees by those same fine bureaucrats.

What a bunch of BS. This even puts Don Ryan’s stupid hand towel bill of last session to shame

Further detail on The Montana WatchDog


  1. the scary thing...

    25,000 alcohol related auto deaths per year in u s...

    7% of americans are murdered each year...over half alcohol related...

    50% of rapes are alcohol related

    50% of property crimes are alcohol related...

    maybe the booze dens bear watching to help protect innocent people.

  2. personally I think that if a Republican would of presented this bill you HDC would be drooling all over it. And WTF is up with your constant, abnoxious whining about the Havre Daily News?? So we get it already that you don't like their paper...nuf said dude!! In the process of you critiquing the HDN about their investigative journalism you botched your "facts" in your own rant. Darrell wasn't found a few weeks later...try months buddy!! He went missing Dec 5th and was found Feb 6th. Nice try tho?? And meanwhile he was stuck in the ice 2 blocks away from the bar he left, while his hat was found several blocks away by the creek. His family was beside themselves as were his two small sons. This isn't about nanny anything, this is about having some cameras outside bars where people tend to leave intoxicated and bad sh*t tends to happen. Hardly a stretch, Jesus...does everything have to be some conspiracy to right wingers???

  3. This baby sitting mentality is about over the top.You drink; you are responsible; unless of course some one holds a gun on you and it is eather drink or get shot.Can you see the YOU TUBE footage of the people leaving the bar?

  4. it would be great, joe, if we were talking about responsibility...
    but, we are talking about communities getting serious about how much they are willing to pay for the "right" of a few to behave insanely, without regard to others' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

  5. One would think the bars insurance carrier would require the cameras rather than the state, if it is actually such a liability.

    There is also a question of access to the video, as bars should be discreet but that is not always the case. Copies of the tapes could be subpeonaed for evidence in divorce courts, probation/parole offices etc.

    This is not to mention health or life insurance companies being able to to subpeona the tapes to dispute/deny payments to people in the smoking clubs outside the door of every bar.

    People have a tendency to forget the greatest security camera systems in the world can be simply overcome with a piece of electrical tape over the lens.

    Hopefully common sense will override this. People should read more Orwell.

  6. orwell wrote 1984...
    in 2011 that's old news.

  7. I am amazed that anyone is sticking up for this bill. In fact I think that the sponsor of the bill should be hearing from people all over the state asking he to resign.

  8. Johnson says "7% of americans are murdered each year...over half alcohol related..."
    So 21 million people a year are being murdered in the US? Does that sound like a faulty number to anyone else. I really need to open a funeral home, because that sounds like a booming industry.
    I love liberals, they tell the best stories!

  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

  10. The government can’t save us from ourselves no matter how many new laws they can pass. This is a knee jerk reaction to one specific disappearance.

    Cars kill people so should we drive cars that have governors to limit the top speed to 35 mph so they are safer?

  11. cranky...

    not a liberal...
    lifetime nra.

    obviously, i made a mistake with a decimal...
    hard to get the facts from the feds/states...runs from .47% to .7%

    there is no doubt that alcohol is the largest and most expensive health risk in our society...
    probably the world.

    it would seem that people who are willing to drink until they have no memory of the event would be thankful that somebody protected them from themselves and no harm came to the community.

    if the cameras are there, one can choose not to be there.

  12. The problem is that alcohol is treated differently than other things. There is not much factual information out there, as the AA faith and the recovery industry cartel have promoted very deceptive fallacies for decades, as well as promoting the very faulty disease model of addiction.

    This leads to some real problems as people convicted of drunk driving are wrongly TRAINED they have a concocted, and incurable brain 'disease', many times at tax payer expense.

    This 'disease' designation really has NO credible evidence in the scientific or academic community. When one studies the back room deals that were made with the AMA to designate the 'disease' and the AMA's official written harsh critique of the AA faith (as reported in JAMA) one understands that drinking too much is by no means a 'disease'. In fact the words 'alcoholism', 'alcoholic', or 'alcoholics anonymous' are not even printed in the DSM IV manual.

    People are trained, many times by professional members of the AA faith, such as very unqualified drug and alcohol counselors, that they have this 'disease' and that alcohol is some type of cunning, baffling, and powerful substance, when in reality it is an inanimate solvent.

    The Sinclair Method in conjunction with the drug Naltrexone is by far the most effective method for people to stop the negative BEHAVIOR of addiction, with a 78% efficacy rate, as opposed to AA that has less than a 5% success rate, according to their OWN NUMBERS.

    If states, courts, social services and employers would understand this, instead of the unearned admiration and undeserved credibility bestowed on the AA faith many less people would die.

  13. decon:

    "not much factual information out there"

    the national institute of health has years of research data on alcohol and alcoholism...

    national drug and alcohol research center...

    rutgers university...
    university of florida...
    univ of delaware...
    univ of north carolina...
    tufts university...
    brown university...

    to mention just a few...

    i think you would find that aa is well aware of the research and supportive of new information on the disease of alcoholism.

    typically social drinkers don't get drinkers tend not to put other peoples' property or life at peril...they tend not to get in bar fights...tend not to buy booze ahead of food for their family...tend not to go banko as frequently...have fewer divorces etc etc.
    so, those who do put property and life at peril have a serious problem.

    the "back room deals" is confusing.

    dsm-iv...alcohol dependence

    a. tolerance
    b. withdrawal
    c. unable to control amounts
    d. unable to cut down or quit
    e. excessive time devoted to
    drinking activities.
    f. impaired social or work
    activities due to alcohol.
    g. use despite physical or
    psychological consequence.

    "very unqualified drug and alcohol counselors"...
    most states, including mt, require certification in the field.

    the 'disease' is not alcohol.

    aa is not a "faith".

    addiction is not a results in behavior.

    if the sinclair method really worked...
    you might not have a grind on aa.

    hamlet said: "...doth protest too much, methinks."

  14. @Johnson

    Hamlet really!?

    I do continue to protest, and protest alot, at the forced and coerced participation and conversion to the AA faith, a faith that should more rightly be called the American Holocaust for the number of people they kill.

    I do notice that people tend to make personal ad hominem attacks rather than address the charges against the AA faith and the recovery industry cartel.

    Your cut and paste hack job from the DSM IV does not in any way answer the charges of the concocted disease that does not really exist outside the recovery industry. If you can find any of the words I stated, I would really like to know what page they are on, as they are not in my copy of the DSM IV, maybe they are in yours.

    I would consider that you are extremely unqualified to have this conversation, so if you would like to continue, please bring some facts.

  15. decon...


    protest have all the right!
    careful about those resentments though...
    they can really get in the way of true recovery.
    it's not so much the damage to the body that matters (until late-stage) as it is the destruction of the mental/emotional gizmo ...
    all that hypoxia stuff, huh?

    people who have to take a pill to drink alcohol have what...?
    an allergy?
    if i had to take a pill to eat chicken...
    i would probably quit chicken.

    jews, catholics, shintos all have experienced recovery through aa...
    in part because it is NOT a "faith".

    perhaps you believe the suffering alcoholics render on friends, family and the community at large should have no consequences. that they should not be required to examine their behavior.
    perhaps they should be able to run mad...
    and good luck to everyone else.

    i think sarah palin mentioned that a while back.
    there's a chance that it is the ALCOHOL that does the killing.
    sort of like loco for horses...
    you'd think they'd smarten up, no?

    i never add hominy to my breakfast...
    hate the stuff.

    i've made no attacks.

    the cartel just might be the dim lighted dens that line the streets of america and just happen to spawn endless grief.
    we read about it in the paper...often.

    actually, i just listed the info from the dsm...don't know how to cut and paste...
    or hack.

    you have use for a dsm?
    i've heard of housewives reading chilton's.

    it appears that "qualified"...
    would mean passing your bar...
    with your fax.

    but seriously...
    may you come to peace with how little we sorry humans can control.
    pain is mandatory, misery is optional.

  16. Johnson-

    Once again you choose to ignore real and relevant facts to pursue your misguided spelling and prose.

    Seriously, you bring no facts to this discussion, and therefore are remarkably unqualified to discuss this.

    Do not make this like the corporation discussion, in which you were left studdering. Somewhat like the housewife and chilton thing, your misguided corporate rants make it obvious that a drunk can google.

    Bring some real facts.

  17. "studdering"???

    grannie must have really spanked you over your grammar and spelling.

    i'm a drunk.
    been sober a long day.

    the sinclair method is not for social drinkers, no?

    your love of corporations indicates
    an absolute absence of facts.
    but what could one expect of someone accepting welfare checks from goldman sachs (greed is good and other randian bullshit).

    if you were really up on "facts" you would have read on that your boys are taking some of your welfare moo to know, the pivot point of the axis of evil.
    you would think in the land of "free press" you could find the piece.
    gotta go to israel.

    don't want to hear your tripe about "facts" think facts are rant.

    didn't know professors were so loose with THEIR facts.

  18. There does seem to be some confusion, as you attempt to change the conversation about.... money going to Iran?

    Once again, a real big whatever.

    Maybe society can go back to the stone age, you can grow your own food, and cut wood to heat your residence. Take all your money out of the evil banks and you can trade beads or shark teeth for needed provisions.

    Getting back to the thread, these dangers involving alcohol can be directly linked to the misinformation and disinformation that is promoted, marketed, and prosyltized by the AA faith and the recovery insdustry cartel, in the worst health care disaster in modern American medical history.

    Unfortunately people believe this misinformation as medical fact, and continue to die, based soley on the unearned admiration and undeserved credibility that is bestowed on the AA faith, and their professional evangelists representing their profitable arm in the recovery industry.

    The actions of this faith and their industry are unexcusable and indefensible.

    So change the subject to Iran, if you think it will save face, however, your complete ignoring of facts presented to you to change the discussion to what you have googled recently shows your complete lack of credibility on the subject.

    The facts speak for themselves.

  19. the comment on iran is a side note to point out your "FACTS" might be off...
    the argument that banks and corporations are necessary for modern life might have a hair of validity...
    but look at what they have done with the public trust...
    THAT'S the real issue there.

    i have no investment in your struggles with booze OR your attitude about aa.
    you are spreading complete fiction about the organization.
    to avoid any government influence the organization accepts no government money at any level.

    keep you fantasy, just don't put it out as fact.
    your issues scream for themselves.

  20. According to Johnson-

    'to avoid any government influence the organization accepts no government money at any level'

    Nothing could be further from the truth. Insurance companies were beginning to balk and refuse payment for substance abuse treatment, which is forced and coerced AA, as 96% of US rehabs use AA dogma and theology, as well as virtually 100% of drug and alcohol counselors come from an AA background and evangelize for the faith.

    The insurance industry was denying payment as AA and its industry has between a 95 and 100% net FAILURE rate depending on whose statistics are used.


    Rep Pat Kennedy (D-Mass) and his Republican AA sponsor Rep. Jim Ramsted of Minnesota attached the Mental Health Parity Act, literally in the middle of the night, to the banking bailout bill. This now requires health insurance, as well as Medicaid and Medicare, to pay for 12 step 'treatment' as many times as it allegedly takes, until a person 'gets it' Neither will be seeking re-election.

    AA is the umbilical cord of the 17 billion dollar recovery industry cartel, that is such a failure the word 'rehab' is actually used as a punchline for late night comedians.

    There is getting to be a very large and vocal community to deconstruct the recovery industry, and expose the murders, assaults, rapes, child molestations and swindles that happen in the AA faith and its profitable arm, the recovery industry cartel.

  21. Sorry, I misstated that Pat Kennedy was from Mass (honest mistake- there are a lot of kennedys there)

    He was representing the people of New Hampshire. The rest of my post is accurate.

  22. collection of medicaid/medicare funds requires a physician's signature.
    aa doesn't employ physicians.

    but i hear there are drug you take to manage the career at the bar.

    the bill was for mental health...
    aa is not a mental health agency.

    but again, i have no interest in your hard times with booze.
    resentment is a major issue in a man's search for peace.
    sobriety is not a matter of stopping drinking or "dosing" with alcohol.
    sobriety is a search for peace.
    any way you can get there is wonderful.

    you ain't there.

    good luck.

  23. Johnson claims-

    'sobriety is not a matter of stopping drinking or "dosing" with alcohol'

    Through the passive-agressive comments, one can now see that the junk science and lazy theology promoted by the members of the AA faith.

    The true purpose of AA is to worship the AA god.

    By the way, AA does employ a lot of physicians. Many of them at their corporate headquarters, and some of them sending us some very damaging documentation.